New Zealand Parliamentary Debate

Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi Deletion Bill [4468]

The ASSISTANT SPEAKER( Ann Hartley)

: I have ruled on the point of order, and it is disorderly to contest the ruling. I have ruled on it.

Te Ururoa Flavell

: Excuse me, Madam Assistant Speaker. Just to help us at this point in time, the difficulty has been, perhaps, in portraying the korero to the translator. What Mrs Turia has raised is the intent of the point of order, which was to draw to the attention of the House, and of the member, that in this week of Maori language we would appreciate the effort to pronounce words in an appropriate way. At the point in time when I raised the matter, it was a matter on which I had taken offence-thus I raised the point of order.

The ASSISTANT SPEAKER( Ann Hartley)

: That was not certainly clear the first time.

Hon Brian Donnelly

: I want to be helpful here. The issue is that members can take offence at what has been said. I do not believe that members can take offence at how something has been said, because there are some members in this House whose English, in fact, offends many people in the way it is produced. We would be forever taking points of order about other members if we could do that about the manner in which something had been said. The key issue is whether somebody has attempted to pronounce the language in an appropriate form. I think that a reasonable attempt was made by the member Doug Woolerton. Interruption

The ASSISTANT SPEAKER( Ann Hartley)

: Please be seated; I will rule on the point of order. The member has spoken to the point of order and I agree with him-it concerns how. I agree with the member that we will get ourselves into a lot of difficulties if that is taken literally.

Tariana Turia

: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker-

The ASSISTANT SPEAKER( Ann Hartley)

: Is it a new point of order?

Tariana Turia

: Well, it is a clarification. I would like to refer the Assistant Speaker to the time when Rodney Hide pronounced Elmar Toime's name incorrectly and that was drawn to the attention of the Speaker of the House at the time, Jonathan Hunt. So if we Maori people are to continue to allow the mispronunciation of our language, then I think that it is a pretty sad day for this House-because that is offensive.

Lindsay Tisch

: Maybe I can assist. If the member feels that Mr Woolerton made an offensive remark by not using a proper Maori interpretation or pronunciation, and if he feels that that is an offence, then under Standing Order 115 he can ask for an apology. So the question is whether the member has taken offence at what Mr Woolerton has said. If he has, then there is a remedy. If he has not, then there is no case to answer, because-as has been said, and from what I could hear from where I was sitting-there was actually no offence taken other than at the mispronunciation of a word. So, Madam Assistant Speaker, I suggest you ask whether Mr Flavell was offended by a misinterpretation or mispronunciation of a word.

Rodney Hide

: I just refer to the point that Tariana Turia made, and she is quite right. That was at question time. It seems to me that if a Labour MP raises a point of order in this House, it receives a very favourable hearing, but when members on this side of the House raise a point of order, it is shouted down. I distinctly remember that at one question time about 10 or 15 minutes were spent on my mispronunciation of-I am too scared to say it-the name of the gentleman who used to run New Zealand Post, and Labour MPs took points of order and were ruled on very favourably. My mispronunciation was considered to be highly offensive, because it was me saying it and Labour MPs complaining about it. Here we have Maori Language Week and an Opposition MP is taking offence-

Hon Judith Tizard

: Ha, ha-try his name!